Comments on: Indies

By: JP

JP — Sun, 04 Apr 2004 13:09:08 +0000

Urban Terror fits pretty squarely into the “subject matter indistinguishable from mainstream” bin. I know they were one of the earlier “tactical realism” mods out there, but I don’t really have much affection for Counterstrike clones, even well-executed ones, and I certainly wouldn’t consider them part of the indie movement.

By: Jeffool

Jeffool — Sat, 03 Apr 2004 19:06:00 +0000

A quick example of an indie FPS, http://www.urbanterror.net .
Currenty they mod the Q3A engine for their game, but on April second they released the final Q3A-mod version. With their next release they will be building on the open sourced Enemy Territory code rather than modding Q3A.
That count?

By: JP

JP — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:05:02 +0000

Yes, I should recant / clarify by saying that the financial ceiling isn’t the defining quality of an indie game. However at the moment, the ideological thrust and the financial realities are rather hard to disentangle. The alternative is, in part at least, defined by what the mainstream *isn’t*, and one thing the mainstream certainly is right now is well-moneyed.
You seem pretty disgusted with the current independent development scene, and while I have to admit it’s sad to see so many wannabe pro developers who’d drop everything to work on Max Payne 3, there *are* some promising ideas being explored. The example games you put forth aren’t really so “out there” that I couldn’t see them being worked on by a small team of crazies who believe in the idea.
Really, it’s all we’ve got right now. We’re doing all we can to make it better and a more worthwhile (if not visible) fringe of the medium. It took the Open Source Software movement a while (and an obvious, formidable enemy) to get their shit together as well, and I think that’s an apt analogy in at least a few respects.

By: Brandon

Brandon — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:38:40 +0000

JP: The implication was supposed to be that yes, indeed, people spend more productive time working with spreadsheets than they do playing games, i.e. they are engaged in serious activity. The fact that what they do — work — is somehow invisible next to the “cultural phenomenon” of computer games is something of an irony.
You seem stuck on the relationship between financial resources and the independent market. If being crippled by a lack of resources — financial, talent, &c — is what defines independent games, well then having an Independent Games Festival is pretty much a Special Olypmics for computer games, except that not everyone in the IGF is a $$winner$$. And yes, the IGF is supposed to be more than just wanna-be game developers, but at present, and for the forseeable future, that is in fact what it is.
I’m concerned with independent as alternative. Garage developers who want to be just like the big guys are not alternative.

By: Walter

Walter — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:12:56 +0000

I figure it’d be hard to describe the garage game ethos in unambiguous terms. There may not be a clear set of necessary and sufficient conditions needed to describe something as a ‘garage game’, but I take it that a single person working on an unfunded game (that he eventually plans to release for free) when he gets home from flipping burgers at McDonald’s is definitely working on a garage game. Uncertainty is probably key, whether of financial support, game concept, development skills (newbies), and so on.

By: JP

JP — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:45:01 +0000

“there are both low budget games produced by established companies”
These are “budget” titles. They are sold at retail for a reduced price, and their budget still amounts to far, far more than almost every indie game budget.
“and high budget games produced by ‘independent’ companies”
A company’s independently owned (ie not part of a publisher or some larger company) status has nothing to do with whether or not its games are indie.
“The industry’s appeal for an independent games movement is quite suspect”
What’s this monolithic industry you’re referring to? I haven’t heard anyone who works for a big company issue such an appeal. Greg Costikyan is a vocal proponent of indie game development, and I don’t really think you could lump him in with someone who works for EA, or a nobody like myself with a bedroom coding project. The mainstream does what it does, usually with a lot of money flying this way and that, and we work on the outside in a comparatively money-less vacuum. Many indies do try to make money off what they do by selling via the net with alternative distribution channels.
“What about the modding community? What about Counterstrike?”
Mods are a borderline case, arguably their own class, because they are building, usually for free, onto a base that still cost millions of dollars to make. I would consider CS to be an indie game, until the point when the team was absorbed by Valve and began selling as a retail product (early 2000?).
“the subject matter and the audience is indistinguishable from the mainstream.”
A) Unless you consider the subject matter and audiences of rRootage, Puzzle Pirates and Fashion Cents to be “indistinguishable from the mainstream” that is incorrect, and B) I never said that either were part of the definition. It’s definitely to the advantage of an indie to eschew mainstream subject matter because it typically requires you to put that subject matter across with production values, but that doesn’t stop a lot of them from trying. I can’t help it if most indies are just wannabe professional devs.
The recent controversy within the indie community over Savage, a title with a budget of $1.5 million, emerges because there hasn’t been much of a standard for what constitutes “indie” for the purposes of the competition. There is definitely a large schism within a competition which pits a game like Savage, which walks and talks like a normal mainstream retail product, up against games like Bontago, and the indie community is going to have to define their terms more clearly.
“There’s just as much art and expressive power in a spreadsheet as there is in Doom 3.”
That doesn’t really answer my question, which is whether you were being facetious or not with the “playing pointless computer games” comment. Is that statement aimed at Doom3 or at spreadsheets?

By: Brandon

Brandon — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:36:52 +0000

So how would you describe the garage game ethos?

By: Walter

Walter — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:33:36 +0000

Quick comment: I really think that the controversy here is about the garage game ethos versus matter-of-fact independence(which I take to simply be: self-owned). Presumably, we want the IGF to be about garage games and not anything that can claim to be developed by an independently owned and operated company.

By: Brandon

Brandon — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:05:28 +0000

The budget restriction is not a satisfactory condition for determining independent status, as there are both low budget games produced by established companies and high budget games produced by “independent” companies. And there’s no real significant difference between the types of games produced in this industry to be able to identify a field of independent games; it would be great if there were, but for the most part it is a stangant industry with a diminishing number of original ideas and titles each year.
The industry’s appeal for an independent games movement is quite suspect — /especially/ if their idea of independence is based on extremely low production budgets. After all, why spend profits on innovation, when you can get a bunch of guys in a garage to produce top quality work for almost nothing? We already know that the industry is struggling with ballooning budgets, so we should be immediately suspicious when that very same industry says, “Hey, we need more independent games that cost lest to develop.”
JP writes: “I’ve never seen an FPS that would be considered ‘indie’.”
What about the modding community? What about Counterstrike? Here we do indeed have an independent community of game developers. One whose main distiction is that they do not get any real compensation for their work. Otherwise, the subject matter and the audience is indistinguishable from the mainstream.
JP: “I honestly can’t tell if you’re being facetious or not here.”
I’m very serious about studying software. There’s just as much art and expressive power in a spreadsheet as there is in Doom 3.

By: JP

JP — Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:48:47 +0000

An independent game is a game that was developed with a budget that is considerably less than what most AAA titles have. That budget cap is arbitrary and changes with time depending on what the average budget for a mainstream title is, but being a moving target doesn’t make it illusory. The budget restriction directly impacts production values and often, indirectly, subject matter. The distinction seems pretty clear to me, and I’m sure it does to other indie developers as well.
“Here’s a mainstream FPS, here’s an independent FPS”
Really? Where? I’ve never seen an FPS that would be considered “indie”.
“It’s a young industry where the few successful genres are just barely removed from their poorly financed origins”
The FPS genre may have started with Wolfenstein but now we regularly see titles with 7 and 8-figure budgets. There are very obvious differences between such games and the zero-budget artsy FPS game I’m working on.
“many studios teeter on the edge of financial ruin on a regular basis”
If Paramount Pictures spends $100 million making a film, whether they are on death’s door financially or swimming in profits has no bearing on said film’s indie or non-indie status.
“Never mind the fact that far more people spend far more time using software than they do playing pointless computer games”
I honestly can’t tell if you’re being facetious or not here.